How Red Robin’s Waiter of the Year Built MULTIPLE 9-Figure Businesses

Mindy:
Welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast where we interview Red Robin’s employee of the year, James Dainard, and talk about entrepreneurship, scaling a business and making tough decisions during economic shifts.

James:
We look at what does our client need that will help them grow, and then we add in that service into the mix at that point. That’s how we’ve exponentially grown our brokerage. Because once we started offering that service as a part of a listing service, which again is way more than a normal broker will do, we caught fire and we went from doing one to two listings every couple months to where we had a pipeline of over 200 listings in a 24-month period.

Mindy:
Hello. Hello. Hello. My name is Mindy Jensen and with me as always is my fellow finance fanatic co-host, Scott Trench.

Scott:
Great to be here with my magic money maven, Mindy Jensen.

Mindy:
Wow. I had to look up the alliteration on mine. You just come up with it. You’re so good, Scott. Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else to introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you are starting.

Scott:
That’s right. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments in assets like real estate or start your own businesses, we’ll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards your dreams.

Mindy:
Scott, today is my favorite person, James Dainard, and a masterclass on how to work on your business, not in your business. He is constantly reworking and refining his business to make it the best business it can be, and he has tons of tips for our listeners. If you are a business owner or if you are thinking about starting your own business, this episode is an absolute cannot miss.

Scott:
Absolutely. I really enjoyed talking to James, and I think a lot of folks aspire to this kind of concept of, oh, I own a business, but that business could just operate indefinitely without me and it’d be fine. I’m sure James business could operate indefinitely without him, it’d be fine, but it grows much faster and operates much stronger because he’s the quarterback and the head coach of his business and is heavily involved in it. I think it’s an in and on all out approach and I think you’re going to learn a lot and this is a much more realistic look and I think the really successful small to medium size business owner than maybe what social media may lead you to believe.

Mindy:
We have a new segment on the Money Show called The Money Moment, where we share a money hack tip or trick to help you on your financial journey. Today’s money moment is a new study has found that two in three parents said shopping with their kids tends to be more expensive than just shopping by themselves. Our advice next time you go shopping, try to leave the kids at home. Solo shopping costs an average of $133. Meanwhile, shopping with the kids costs an average of 179. Keep that $46 in your pocket. Do you have a money saving tip for us? Email us at [email protected]
Before we bring in James, let’s take a quick break, and we are back. James Dainard is a real estate investor and entrepreneur in the Pacific Northwest. More importantly, he’s the co-host of the newest BiggerPockets podcast called On The Market where they cover market trends, news and data and the economy. James can also frequently be seen sharing his real estate knowledge on the BiggerPockets YouTube channel. Today, we’ve asked him to join us to talk about his journey into entrepreneurship and how he built and scaled his business. James Dainard, welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. I’m so excited to talk to you today.

James:
I’m excited to talk to you. Mindy’s like you’re one of my favorite pe … The energy she brings just brings it out of me, so I’m stoked to be on here today.

Mindy:
Well, thank you, James. Let’s jump into it because we are going to go really, really in deep today. Let’s talk about your money story. How does that look?

James:
Just like I think a lot of people, I got started with not a whole lot. How I got into this business was I was a senior in college. I was going to University of Washington at business school and I started look and I was working at Red Robin basically. I was a full-time waiter. I’m a firm believer that people should have jobs during college. I was working 40 hours a week when I was in college, basically slanging burgers, paying for school. Then in that final year of college, I started looking for a sales job for practice or internship. I had taken an internship with an elevator salesman that the summer before where I was learning how to sell elevators and then I figured out elevators weren’t for me. I was starting to look into what I could do just to build skillset.
It wasn’t even about getting into an industry that I really wanted to be in. It was just like, hey, I want to learn how to deal with the objection, rejection and just get through the process. Then randomly, my business partner today, who was also my roommate at the time, had sold a car to a local investment company because he worked at a car dealership and they were so impressed by him. They recruited him to come work and he came back and what the job was was they had a list of properties that needed a lot of repair and needed a lot of work, and his job was to go knock on the doors and get them to sell to this company as a wholesaler. He was telling me about this new job. He just took it. I’m like, well, shoot, I like real estate.
I had boughten one piece of land when I was 18 years old and then sold it. I was like, well, I like real estate, and I had a real estate background. I was like, well, I look, I want to do this. I want to practice knocking on doors. I took this job when I was a senior in college and I was going to school full time. I would work three doubles on Friday, Saturday and Sunday at Red Robin. Then I would knock doors Monday through Thursday from three o’clock till nine to 10 o’clock at night, and it was just busy. Then I figured out the world of door knocking and wholesaling and how amazing it could be, but also how miserable it could be, and I started learning at that point.

Mindy:
I love that you did this as a senior in college. I think back to when I was in college, I’m like, I know everything. I should have been doing real estate when I was a senior in college, when I was in college at any time. Because the experiences you get, back then, if somebody told me no, I’ve been like, whatever, you’re wrong. I’ll just go to the next one. Whereas now that I’m an adult, I’m like, I can be more self-conscious. I’m not super self-conscious, but I can be more self-conscious. Oh, they said no. Oh, maybe I won’t try it again. If you’re a senior in college and you think you want to get into real estate, get your license, go out and knock on doors, like James said, that’s a really great experience. I mean sales way back on episode, was it 32 or 35 with Planting Our Pennies, Mr. Planting Our Pennies said, “Having a sales background is so amazing, you can make so much money if you can just master the art of the sale.”

James:
Yeah, I think that’s really important for college kids and young people in general is to just take that step. When I took this job, it was just to learn and I wanted to learn about the business but also learn sales, but I made $0 for that first year. I was terrible at knocking doors. I had no idea, I didn’t know anything about real estate. They didn’t give me any training. It was literally, here’s this stack of leads, go get them to sell to us. I didn’t know what HUD was, I didn’t know what an offer was, I didn’t know any of these things, but I took the step just to learn. I think it’s really important when you’re in college or you’re in your education that you have to get out of that box of just learning and following the process and get into the real world because the real world is a lot different than education and to put it to use really helps me grow as a person, but it’s not about making that money, it’s about learning that trade to help you down the road to really build your business out.

Scott:
How did this set you up for entrepreneurship in the next stage of your career?

James:
Yeah, I think that’s a great question because originally when I took this job, I wanted to get into medical device sales and work for a company. But I also know that I like to be in control of my own destiny or I really figured this out during wholesaling because what I had learned during this time is that first year I was banging, I probably was knocking at least three to 400 doors a week and there was a lot of driving around, getting yelled at, getting ran off their yards. I wasn’t making any money, but I was watching these entrepreneurs in my office that were a lot older than me grow their business and making money and buying property and doing well. Then also I saw their freedom that they were doing. They were in their mojo. They weren’t working as hard as me because they didn’t really have to.
They had their book of business, they had their form and these guys were going out and taking vacations. They were living off their rental properties. I was like, I’m doing this wrong or going to work for someone just is not… The longer I worked there, which is weird, the longer I worked there, the less money I made because I was spending money on gas. But the more motivated I was to stay in the business and take over my own entrepreneurship and because when you’re a wholesaler for this company, I worked for them, but I was an independent contractor. I got to work my own hours, got to go contact people on my own accord, and I was also responsible for developing myself.
During that year, I spent a lot of time reading up on what foreclosure sales were, what distressed sales were, what title was, what the HUD was, and really training myself. Then once I spent the time, because I knew I was a person that liked to work and so I just invested in myself and really trained myself at that point. Then I put it to work. Once I graduated college, I had done one deal by then. In 12 months, I had got one deal done and I remember I was graduating, I was like, okay, is this time to start applying for jobs? Because I was getting job offers. They were good job offers for medical device.
I was like, well, I can make 200 grand a year right now, or I can keep knocking on doors and getting yelled at. It was like this, but it was a really hard choice for me and it should be a no-brainer for a kid coming out of college that had that potential make that kind of money, especially back then. But there’s just something kept me in this business. I was like, no, I don’t want to work for somebody. I didn’t want to do corporate life. I didn’t want to be nine to five or nine to six and following orders. I wanted to be in control of my own destiny because for me, my picture of what I want to be in life isn’t… I’m not going to get there by having a nine to five even if I do really well in that sales job.
Then what happened is as I put in more effort in training, it started, all of a sudden, the lights turned on and I went from doing one deal in 12 months to doing two deals in a month, to doing three deals in a month, to doing eight deals in a month. I created this system and it is because I was systemizing, they just gave me the opportunity and I systemized it behind there. Because I systemized it, I recruited more people to knock doors underneath me and it went from me knocking doors to having three guys underneath me and I was just running appointments all day long. Once it got systemized, it got even more enjoyable. Then there was no way I was ever going to work for anybody again.

Scott:
I happen to be rereading Rich Dad Poor Dad right now and part of the book and Mindy’s making a face, but I love that book. This is exactly the story that they bring in there. The kids work in the shop and they get paid very little to teach them about how working for money is really hard or whatever. Then they start working for nothing, which is kind of your story. You’re making less and less the harder you work because there’s more and more travel. But that leads to an opportunity for them to get these comic books or whatever that they can then rent out and create a library and passive income. It’s like, I don’t know, I just thought that was a really interesting parallel with your thought process and what’s kind of embodied in a lot in that particular book of I’m not going to work for money. I’m going to work in order to build a business here and learn the skillsets that I need to do. I’m going to dive really deep into that and use that opportunity to begin getting the snowball turning.

James:
Yeah, I think that’s a really important and that’s a really good parallel and I think that’s really important for me at least to remember is actually the most impactful times in my whole career has always been when I have not been making money. It’s not the good times, it’s the learning, when you really have to push yourself to learn through. When I started made no money, it was a grind through. When 2008 happened, was definitely not making any money and I was losing money.
But those are all the times that I really took a look at what I was doing, figured out how I needed to adapt it, and it was either I had to run away and do something else or hang in there and grind through it. Those times, I mean, those are the most impactful times or when I lose a lot of money on a property because it still happens to this day, no one ever hits them all. That’s when I learn the most and that’s what actually pushes me forward in life, not making the money, it’s learning the lessons. A lot of times learning lessons does not mean you’re creating income.

Mindy:
Okay. I want to highlight something that you said a couple of minutes ago. You said, I spent a lot of time reading what foreclosure sales were. I wasn’t able to type as fast as you were talking so I couldn’t get the whole quote. But that right there, I spent a lot of time reading, you prepared. You didn’t just jump in with both feet and expect success. If you want to be successful in business, you have to prepare. We are both real estate agents. There’s something called continuing education in many fields. Real estate agency is one of them. You have to continually be learning.
If you’re not continually learning, you are going to stagnate and then your sales are going to drop and you’re going to be like, huh, I wonder why this isn’t working anymore and you’re not going to be as successful. The fact that you spent a lot of time in the beginning doing the education, doing the work, and now I don’t want to say everything’s easy because like you just said, you still sometimes lose money. That’s what happens. You do a job and you’re like, oh, that didn’t work out. I really thought with all the preparation that I did, I really thought it was going to work and it didn’t. You set up a foundation where you could have lost so much more if you didn’t even have that foundation.

Scott:
What were your expenses like during this period? How were you living?

James:
I had to live very thriftily. Luckily, I was a really good Red Robin waiter. I even was team member of the year at Red Robin for the whole nation. I’ve never worked normally though. Even when I was a waiter, I would run 20 to 25 tables at a time. I was there to make as many three… I mean, the thing about Red Robin is your tips were like three to five bucks typically per table, maybe 10 on a big size order. I was like, well, I got to do volume. That’s why I worked those long hours on the weekends. Literally, I would get there at 9:00 AM on a Friday leave at 1:00 AM and I would do that Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I would open the place, shut it down. That gave me enough money to pay for my gas, my rent, and other bills that I needed to do.
At that time, I was paying $500 for a room. My cell phone wasn’t very much and I had paid off my car because I am a saver too. Even when I was a waiter, I would save my money away. I didn’t have any car payment either. I think that’s really important. It’s by me having low cost and also not quitting my income, which wasn’t a ton of income, but it was enough to get by, it allowed me to take the time to learn during the business rather than just jump in two feet and start flailing around trying to figure it out. But it was all on tip money. I was always the guy chasing the most amount of comic cards.
I actually won that contest nationwide. I got the most amount of comic cards in a week and then they gave me a Letterman’s jacket. But I actually think everybody should take a waiter job at some point. It teaches you how to deal with people, that you have to be of service, I mean, there’s nothing more humbling than going up to a table and singing a birthday song 40 times in a day and it’s like getting humble but just making yourself of service, and it really did teach me really good habits for transitioning to being a broker later and helping people.

Scott:
We had David Greene here on the podcast in one of our early episodes and he also started his career as a server and had brought a very similar mentality of thrift and hard work to that how can I add value here? How can I be of service? Yeah, I mean, we’re privileged to learn from both of you guys, real estate entrepreneurs and employees of the year at Red Robin, so this is fantastic.

James:
Was he Red Robin?

Mindy:
That’s what I was thinking too.

Scott:
I don’t know if he’s a Red Robin. Yeah.

James:
I can’t see him doing the birthday song then the clapping.

Mindy:
Do you want to sing the birthday song for us, James? Do you remember it? I remember all of the ones that I had to sing.

James:
Oh, I still remember the ingredients to every burger because you have to memorize that too.

Mindy:
Well, yes, of course.

James:
You name a burger, I’ll tell you what’s on it.

Mindy:
Do you know I won a hamburger recipe contest once? There’s your fun fact about this show that has… There’s your fun fact about me that has nothing to do with this show and we have successfully derailed this show enough. If you’re not going to sing for us, James, we’re going to move on to the next question. Your company was named one of the fastest growing companies and you’ve been on Inc. 5000 several times. How did you scale your business?

James:
Yes. For us, it came down to what the biggest event that happened that allowed us to scale and grow was actually 2008. We had been working in the wholesale business selling, we had became the number one off market guys in Washington where we were doing 20 to 30 deals a month and we had a really good system. In 2008 then, we actually started our own business, opened our doors, invested a lot of money into the properties we were buying, but also into our business. Then all of a sudden, subprime mortgages went away and it crashed. It was this time in the market where everybody was quitting and leaving, and literally, we watched the broker pool go from like it shrunk by 70% in Washington. It was a huge number of people that quit real estate because it was just real estate became that thing that was like leprosy.
No one wanted it. That was the biggest thing because it gave us this open field to run. If everybody’s off the field, you can own that field if you do the right steps. How we scaled and grew those is we went from our wholesale shop, and then when 2008, it got really hard and it was really hard to dispo a deal, and so we were also investors that were flipping properties and knew how to renovate homes. What we figured out was like, okay, we have to get people to buy our deals. Well, how do we do that? We have to mitigate the risk. How we mitigate risk is we’re going to handhold them through that process and give them extra service in the construction. Because we were also doing that, that in we go, that was a service that we would offer people if they gave us the listing.
That’s actually when I became licensed in saying, hey look, if you buy our property, we will help you through the whole process and then we will list the property for you and get a commission. Now, we can make two revenues on each property, but also we were going to help them mitigate risk to buy that property because most people just did not want to touch it. How we’ve grown is every time we’ve had, so we went from wholesalers trying to sell properties. The next business we started was a business that would create revenue on the same transaction but also help us move this deal. It wasn’t out of right field, it was a complimentary. Then from there, we also go to grow and scale, we’re going, okay, well, now, money’s hard to get so and if it’s hard for people to get money, that’s going to be hard for us to sell our deals and now get this listing.
Then that’s when we created a lending business which would then finance the client in the deal too. We’re finding the deal, we’re packaging it, we’re lending them the money, and now we dispo the deal for them too, and we help them mitigate the risk all the way through that protects all of our commissions and fees. That’s really how we’ve scaled all of our businesses is really whatever we’re doing core inside, and we look at what does our client need that will help them grow and then we add in that service into the mix at that point. That’s how we’ve exponentially grown our brokerage. Because once we started offering that service as a part of a listing service, which again is way more than a normal broker will do, we caught fire and we went from doing one to two listings every couple months to where we had a pipeline of over 200 listings in a 24-month period.
Because as long as we could mitigate risk and build out the plan, it would grow exponentially. That’s every time we’ve tried to scale, it’s always about how do we help the client not make more money, that making more money is the byproduct of helping the client. That is the key in how we’ve scaled every business. How do we help our clients? How do we mitigate risk? How can we help them grow, which is going to help us grow in the same time? Then we offer those service and that has changed everything. If we wouldn’t have came up with that broker service, our brokerage would not have exploded like it did.

Mindy:
When you provide value, your clients are happy to reimburse you for that value, but when you ask them for money first and then, oh by the way, maybe I can help you later, they’re not going to be excited to give you money. I love that.

Scott:
James, give us this idea of the scale of your business. Could we get some sort of revenue, employees, transaction volume? How much business are we talking here?

James:
We are deal junkies up in the Pacific Northwest. It all started with wholesaling. Currently, right now typically we do about two to 300 off market deals a year through our wholesale company. That has been a business that has grown steadily through that way. At that business, we have five salespeople and three employees. At our brokerage, typically we’re doing about $150 to $200 million a year with our clients internally with this all direct to investors or dispositions. We’re not a normal brokerage. I don’t go around to show people houses, we show them math. We sell only math, and so that the brokerage does typically about two to 300 deals a year, about $200 million in transactions. Then we have about 20 salespeople for the brokerage inside of my teams and then about 10 admin staff. Our lending business usually does about 100 to 150 million a year in direct loans to investors, which has 10 people in it, and then we have our own…

Scott:
These are hard money loans?

James:
These are all hard money loans. We’re not direct to consumer, we’re commercial paper only, first position deeds of trust, where we will fund investors, our company’s called Intrust Funding. We’ll fund in as little as 24 hours for investors. We’re true to hard money guys. We don’t take bank appraisals. We’ll come finance at the steps.

Scott:
Who provides the capital in that hard money business?

James:
What we’ve done is we’ve raised capital, we have our own capital in there and then we also have raised capital from our investor clients. That’s another way we’ve scaled. By doing good business with people, they want to invest in all of your businesses like our syndicating business, they invest with that. They invest in our hard money fund because some of our investors have done well and they don’t want to do the work anymore. Even if we’re consulting, they just want to invest in us. We pay a equity return. Whatever our blended rate is, that’s the return they get. Then we have lever lines with our local bank that we’ve worked with for almost 12 years now where they give us two to one lines. A third of our lines are private equity and then two thirds of it is off through bank financing. It allows us to pledge and move the loans around.

Scott:
Love that. You feel pretty confident in that debt because you’re servicing it essentially?

James:
That is my favorite business. I personally have probably 50 to 60% of my own liquidity in that business because it pays me a great rate of return and I’m the one that underwrites the deals. We know what the loan to values are and our average loan to value inside of our fund is 68%, and that’s a true value, because how we run that business is the only people that get to put a value on it is my business partner or myself. We don’t take appraisals, we don’t take anything. We also only lend in our backyard, which is Washington state, so we know those markets the back of our hand. We’re not the biggest guys in town, but we’re reliable in Washington.

Scott:
This is a tangent here, but I’ve been really noodling on debt as a debt was ignored for the last 10 years by a lot of folks and that they’re looking to achieve financial freedom because rightfully so, it’s really hard to get a good return on that unless you go into the hard money space here, which I think a couple of savvy investors have been in. But how freeing is it just have half your net worth in something that provides very high simple interest essentially on first position notes against real estate? I mean, it’s not tax efficient necessarily, you can if you do it in a retirement account, but how freeing is that as a concept?

James:
Yeah, that is the negative, that’s a good point. It is a high income bracket, so you’re typically getting taxed pretty heavy on it, but it is extremely freeing because it’s not… I diversify my own investing. I actually invest in syndications, I invest in my own rental properties, I invest in other operators, we put money in our own deals and then a lot in private money. Private money is the easiest one to have. It pays me a steady check every month. The other thing I like about it, it’s committed for a one-year term. Whereas if I’m putting it into real estate holdings, you’re subject to market conditions, which is okay, but if you want that liquidity, you might have to wait two to three years or you might have to get clipped and take a little bit of a loss to get your cash back out.
This protects my balance and I have access to the liquidity and it is extremely freeing because that’s where a lot of investors get hung up on passive income. They’re like, well, I don’t want to put in a syndication deal, that’s a five-year commitment and they just can’t think past 12 months. For me, I’m the same way because I do want access to that capital if I need to pull it out and go buy another apartment building or something that’s going to do well. It is one of the best ways, it actually pays… I almost make more money passively through my lending business then I make out my other businesses now.
Anytime I make money, I save it, I shove it in there and then it’s just paying me a high yield. It’s just save your nickel… If you save enough money together and you build that pot big enough, that passive income is real. It is a real thing. I moved to Newport Beach, California three years ago. It is not a cheap place to live. It is a 100% paid for by my investments on my passive income with my hard money space. It is very underrated. I average out at 11.2% on my money every year. It’s a monthly payment and the one negative is a high tax. You got to put your tax in a different account because that tax bill gets you at the end of the year.

Scott:
Or just pay the tax bill and enjoy the freedom with the first chunk of that passive income then get tax efficient. I’m all about the hard money and this kind of stuff. I think it has not been given enough attention in the personal finance space and just make it a third year portfolio potentially, and you can be done years in advance of whether you have a stock portfolio from a passive income perspective. I’ve been getting interested in this and I’m glad to hear that that’s a big part of your portfolio.

James:
It is definitely my passion to keep growing that. The more private lending I can do, the more I’m all over it. It’s less stress too because you don’t have to operate as much, you just have to underwrite well, and as long as you underwrite well, you are protected.

Scott:
If you do have to operate, then luckily, you have a whole business that can actually operate that asset directly and deal with the problem. In the unlikely event, you didn’t have to foreclose. That’s probably also fairly freeing. Well, walk us through that, sorry, I went off this huge tangent. Walk us through the business of the hard money. We got through your flipping business, we got through… Or your listing business and we got through your wholesale business. We did not get through your flipping business and we have not gone actually through the actual structure of this hard money business yet.

James:
Yeah. The hard money business structure, it’s actually fairly simple to run to. We have four employees at that company. That’s all we need to run that business. We have our operations manager who’s been with us for 12 years. She knows loan doc. She can protect our docs. I would trust her with my own money. She knows how to read titles goes through, so she does the quality control and making sure that the collateral is safe to lend money on. That’s really important. Then we have our head underwriter who underwrites all of our loans that are submitted in and then we do final approval. It kicks out loans that we don’t want to look at. Then we just have two salespeople full-time that work with our clients generating the loans and so it’s one of the simplest businesses to run and one of the most profitable, which that’s a win in all buckets to me.
Then we have our investment side, and those are all of our fee businesses. We have the wholesale business, the brokerage service that does buy and selling and then which also does multifamily acquisition as well, our lending business, and those are our fee and service businesses. Then we have our investment businesses and those combine, we develop and build about 30 to 50 town homes a year ourselves. We fix and flip about 50 to 70 homes a year, which is… Now, we’ve switched from doing general contractors to we self-manage everything. All of our employees are in house. That has actually exponentially grown our employment and how many people are in our office now. We just had to actually lease another 5,000 square feet. We’re bursting at the seams. The reason we had to do that, that wasn’t actually something we ever wanted to do because now we have an additional 50 employees.
We have about a 100 employees total in all of our businesses. Our construction component in our investment arm actually take up about 50% of that because it’s just more labor and hands-on responsibilities. But the reason we had to do that is we had to pivot from about two years ago or three years ago because of COVID is the labor market just got trashed. It was really hard to control costs. Labor was costing a lot, bids were costing a lot. For us to reduce that cost, the only solution was to bring it in house and control it ourselves. It was either we were going to have to sit out this crazy market because it was a little too risky to us or how do we fix the problem? And that was bring them in house.
Those construction teams work on our fix and flip, our development, and then we also do apartment syndicating up in Washington where right now we’re renovating about 300 apartment doors as well and that’s all in-house. What we found is in-house, we reduced our cost by about 20 to 30% and we control the schedule to where we know things are getting done on time, not waiting for theirs. That is detrimental in this market right now with the cost of money. It’s very important. Then we have our leasing team that leases and stabilizes up everything as well.

Mindy:
Are you keeping your guys, your construction guys busy? I’m sorry, construction people, busy all the time or are you actually, do they ever have any downtime? Because I have long said that a million dollar, billion dollar idea is just to have a company where you answer the phone when it rings. You have some person dedicated to answering the construction company phone when it rings and just booking people out and you have your calendar, oh, my electrician can come in 13 Fridays from now. Oh, I can’t wait that long. You’re like, okay, well, let me know if you want me to pencil you in otherwise when you call back in an hour because nobody else will answer their phone, it’ll be 15 Fridays from now. There’s no contractors out there that are answering their phone and coming out for for giving quotes and things like that. Are you keeping your guys busy or have you considered starting your own business to help other people who are also not able to find contractors?

James:
We’re not going to consumers. We don’t do any work for a consumer. That is not our business. We keep them so busy. We’re constantly hiring. We just hired another superintendent and a bunch more labor staff too. Because for us, the goal is to build our investments out. Not that I don’t really want to run… We don’t do any, I stay away from dealing… The only consumers I deal with are investors, and outside of that, we won’t do a design build. If we’re building a house, someone’s like, can I pay you more money and change things up? We say no. We just stick to our process because that’s what we do really well. I’m not saying that that’s how everyone should do it, but that’s how our whole business is set up is to build a certain product on production because we do a lot of volumes.
If you throw that random mix in there, it adds in a lot more personalities. Personalities can mean problems. That’s why we’ve stayed away from that consumer side. But our guys stay very, very busy, and if they’re not, we have to make changes. A lot of times, we can move our town home guys over to this section or our renovation guy if we’re short on syndicate, if we’re short on… Right now, our fix and flip inventory is a little bit lower because we’re reloading, but we have a lot of apartments we’re turning, so we’ll move our fix and flip guys over to that to help with labor. Because we have so many businesses going, we can play chess with our people. But for me, I try to stay out of the consumer space. I’m a broker, which is enough consumer interaction and I’m good with that amount. If I don’t have to take any more on, I’m perfectly good with that.

Scott:
Awesome. Any other businesses before I move on to my next question here around scaling a business? We have the flipping business, we have the investment business, we have the hard money business, we have the brokerage business, and we have the wholesaling business. That’s five I’m counting so far.

James:
Yeah, and then we do have a property management, we do offer… We have property management through our brokerage that manages our clients’ rentals that we sell off to, because that was actually something I did not want to start because it’s not the business that I like, but our clients were like, can you please do this? We ended up doing that and that’s actually been growing rapidly right now. Then we have our property management company in house that manages all of our 1,500 doors in Seattle because we didn’t want to outsource that. We have about, yeah, we’re trying to get to 2,000 doors by the end of the year and so that is its own separate business. Then lastly, I have my own investment company that does JV deals where I’m investing in operators in numerous different states or in Washington where I’m just coming up with the money and they’re running the project and we do equity splits at that point. That’s another, just like the lending business, I like that business best. People do the hard work and I just put the money up.

Scott:
You recently crossed $1 billion in personal net worth, is that right?

James:
Yeah. That was, if I get to 10% of that, I’m out. I’m out. I’m going to become a full-time podcaster hopefully on BiggerPockets.

Scott:
Awesome. Look, I’m listening to this and I’m trying to start building my real estate business. This is an inconceivably large business to me, but maybe I have a few rentals and I’m trying to move my business along. How would you recommend someone starts or thinks about it when it’s time to start scaling and putting together a real business, maybe transitioning out of their job? What were your thought processes there? Was it linear? Was it lumpy? Did it come in fits and starts? How does someone go about recreating some of the things that you’ve built here?

James:
I think the first thing is if you’re looking at leaving your nine to five, take it in steps. I’ve saw a lot of people over the last 24 months just go, I’m quitting my great job at tech to go do this full time and good for you, you guys got… I mean, I’m actually really happy people are making these steps, but at the same time, there’s certain things that help you transition over. One is access to money. When you have a W2 job, you can get loans a lot easier. That will help you scale faster. That will help get you to financial freedom faster. You can layer it in as you’re going from a nine to five into entrepreneur. Once you get to being an entrepreneur, you want to really, for me, I always want to dig down is what is my passion and what am I really good at?
I don’t go to the hype on the internet. If people are crushing doing something, I’ll look at that plan to see if it works inside of mine. But I’m never going to go chase the shiny, because the problem is the shiny object syndrome where it’s like short-term rentals were a huge thing for a while where everybody was going after that because it was this shiny object and it was great. It was getting high yields, it was working really well with the pandemic. But then once it slows down, it’s not so shiny. The problem with chasing the shiny object is by the time you actually get it, it was shiny for a reason, it’s already hit its accelerator a lot of times. By the time you put it in plan, you missed it. For me, it’s always about building off of what am I passionate about, what am I really good at? And I stick to what I’m good at.
How I scale is how do I add in the complimentary to what I’m really good at? For me, I am good at underwriting properties, looking at investments, looking at spreadsheets and figuring out how to maximize an ROI on a deal. That is my bread and butter. All the businesses that we’ve scaled out are all built around that general principle. I’m never chasing some… I’ve done one VRBO before and it did not fit in any of my… It’s not for me. It’s just not in my plan. Even though it works for a lot of different people because they’re good at it like Tony’s awesome at it, right from the Rookies Channel and that’s how he is built it. But the easiest way to scale is stick to what you know, and then also make sure before you take that step, before we went to being brokers and selling for investors on market, we were the best off market guys in our market or doing really well.

Scott:
That seems like the unifying theme, that sounds like the unifying theme of your business is we’re really, really good and I have an incredible amount of experience and deeply understand what a good deal looks like in a very specific region of the country, in a specific area. Everything else from your business seems to be built around that fundamental concept. Is that a fair statement?

James:
It is because it’s a way for us to provide the best service. If we know, I’m a firm believer, we don’t sell anything out of our shop if I haven’t personally done it myself. Because we want to educate our clients, we want to make sure we’re mitigating the risk correctly. By knowing where we are, when we are, we don’t need to go… A lot of operators too, they go into these other markets because they’re chasing what everyone else is chasing. I’d rather master my market and build all of our business inside of this market because we’re not the biggest brokerage, we’re not the biggest lender, we’re not the biggest developers and we’re not the biggest syndicators in Washington.
But all of these combined make a very good income for us and so we stick to what we know. We like to stay in our sandbox. For us, lending, we could have gone nationwide in the last two years, but then we’re lending on assets we don’t know. If we have to take that back, I don’t know how to renovate that property, and let’s say it’s in Colorado. If I lend something there, I don’t have any resources. I don’t know the market as well. It also puts my investors at risk. Sticking to what we know has allowed us to, because we know it so well, it allows us to grow rapidly.

Scott:
Well, let me ask you this. A lot of folks say, no, no, don’t do what you just said, what James has done here. Hire somebody who knows what they’re doing to do that for you. You seem to have taken an approach of no, no, no, I’m going to actually get hands on and swing a hammer and knock on a door and find a deal and become an agent and flip a house. Then I’m going to build a business around something that I have deep expertise in. What would you say to folks that have the opposite tack of no, no, no, hire that expertise and bring it in and have them do it for you?

Mindy:
I’m going to answer for him, I’m going to say they’re wrong and James is right, and the reason is you’re not going to know what you don’t know until you get in there and you do it. All the people who are like, oh, just hire somebody, those are the people that have been paid, they’ve paid way too much. Those are the people who are paying $3,000 for a water heater insulation.

James:
There isn’t anything wrong with that. It’s just not how I do it. I mean, if you look at some of the biggest builders in the nation, they’re really good at expanding through different markets, setting up systems, acquiring dirt, building and making money. They’re phenomenal. But they stuck to what they’re really good at, which was finding plots of land, evaluating it, get long closed, hiring their teams and then building a certain type of product. That was what they initially had started with in their current market. We didn’t start that way. We built everything off of our success. Because of where we started, it naturally went this way. I don’t think there’s a right and wrong answer to that at all. I think if you are going to dig into a different market or expand out, you need to be very careful and take your time and scale accordingly.
But it really comes down to what is that core thing that you were doing originally that you’re trying to build out and brand through that way and try to expand out. I’ve seen a lot of companies, we work with a lot of hedge funds too and sell them property. They’ve done really well. We’ve sold many hedge funds that were buying rental properties in numerous markets and they had their teams and it worked out fine for them. But for what I was really, really good at, if my passion is about underwriting investments and knowing them the back of my hand and selling really good packages and also my other passion is making sure people are doing well, I, as a broker and an investor with this last market correction, some people took some haircuts, including myself. That’s just the way it went. That does not sit well with me as a broker.
It gives me anxiety. For me, it’s also about what am I trying to accomplish in life? Yes, we could do more in other states. I had the opportunity to do quite a bit of business in Arizona, but I don’t really want to, I want to stick to what I’m good at because I don’t want to be the biggest, I just want to live a good life and do well. The more I know it, it just protects me and protects my investors. But again, I don’t think there’s a right and wrong way. Some people say I’m doing it wrong because I’m too hands-on on my business and they might not be wrong there. I put in a lot of hours. But for what? It works for me and I build my businesses, what works for me, not what other people are doing.

Scott:
Awesome. Let’s talk about that as a hands-on business owner here. How do you structure that? What’s your leadership team look like? Do you have one for each business unit? Do you have one for the conglomerate? How do you think about your business and manage it on a day-to-day basis?

James:
That is a good question, because we have so many transactions going on. It can be a tidal wave some days. The first thing is I have a really amazing business partner. We’ve been partners now for 18 years and we do divide and conquer. I run a set of businesses, he runs a set of businesses and we have full control of those businesses. Not only that, we trust each other that we are making the right calls. Even if one of the businesses isn’t doing well, we know that the partner is fixing that at that point. How it works is I run the brokerage, the off market, the fix and flip, and then he runs more the management of Intrust Funding, the lending business. I generate a lot of loans with our clients and so we both work on that.
Then he operates the syndications in our rental units in our town homes. They’re split down the middle at that point. Each company has their own managing, either managing partner in there. Our off market company, we took one of our top producing reps and we made him a partner in it. He runs more the day-to-day and I work with him. He’s like our sales manager at that point. Every company has their own sales manager or operation manager, and then they report directly to myself or my business partner, Will.

Scott:
Awesome. Then from a cadence standpoint, how do you meet with these folks? Do you have one-on-one with them every week, every month? Do you have a leadership team meeting? How do those parts, just a glimpse into the week to week life of James?

James:
Yeah. We stay busy with meetings, that’s for sure. I always look at there’s two different types of owners. There’s like the coach owner who’s really on the sidelines. Then there’s the quarterback owner who’s more on the field with the employees. I would say my business partner’s a coach, I’m the quarterback because I’m in the mix. I keep really busy with meetings. I meet with every team. We have six different sales teams between the brokerage and the off market. We meet every week in person, or no, half remote, half in person, but we are meeting every week and those are going to be an hour long sales meetings. We meet in teams so we can talk about what people are… We want everybody talking to each other, what’s going on, what’s working, what’s not working.
Then I give more directive on how we’re trying to accomplish these goals. Then typically we meet individually. I usually meet with a salesperson or a team member at least once one-on-one a month, because I really want to dig into A, what do they like about the job? What’s going on? How do we fix these issues? But also really find out what their goals are. Our employees have been with us a very long time on average. They’re either here a very short time because they can’t quite keep up or they’re here for five to 10 years. Our average employee that’s on payroll has been with me for over seven, eight years. That makes our business function and run really well.
Putting that extra time in with people and finding out what their goals are and then positioning them in the company with what are their goals around has really kept people in and so I like to have that in-person communication. But we do our sales meetings and then everything funnels up, our teams all communicate off. We built a really big robust Salesforce platform and it’s all done through Salesforce. I’m talking to my team all day long, whether it’s underwriting a deal, a construction issue, an offer issue, just a request, and it’s all fed through Salesforce. I can log in, go through all the fires or opportunities and then get them all back, quick information.

Scott:
Given this investment you’ve made, I am envisioning a really strong team that has been outputted from this over time. Is that how you assess your organization right now?

James:
Yeah, we definitely have a strong team and having a strong team and for business owners, one thing you got to remember is you got to pay these people well. We have a very well paid strong team. The longer they’re with you, it does eat into your margins, but it allows you to scale. It’s okay to give away profit and margin as long as it’s giving you the ability to scale. That is really important to us. Also for us, we’re in a technical business, I can’t have… These people better be good because they’re also repping my brand and I don’t want my brand and my name attached to somebody that’s not selling good investments. As a broker, I take this very serious. We are taking people’s money.

Scott:
Has this happened, have you had to restructure or make big changes in various business lines over the years for given that organizations were not repping your brand appropriately?

James:
Yeah, we’ve had to do that numerous times. Because eventually sometimes you hire people and then they start going, I mean, they are salespeople so they can sell and you have to keep a lid on them. Yeah, no, I mean at one point, I remember in 2017, I actually let the whole off market team go at the same time. It was actually my other partner was managing it with our sales rep and it wasn’t going well, and the teams were fighting with each other and we have very good synergy in our office. No one fights over money. Everyone gets along, they perform well, but there’s a lot of friction, and there was so much friction. I was like, this isn’t curable. We started clean and now the business is doing 10 times better than it was when we let everybody go. Sometimes you have to look at it and go, is my core employee group good? Not only good, are they trainable and teachable? Do they have the same core values? That is the most important thing for me. I can train whatever, but they have to have core value.

Scott:
Every CEO, every business owner goes through that at some point, and it is anxiety, nerve wrecking, it probably kept you up for a long time prior to making that decision, I would imagine, or at least the first time that this had to happen. There’s a situation where I think if you have a leadership problem there, the leader of this group, that can sometimes be, hey, this whole group is going to be an issue for us and we have to start over. We’ve talked to a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners, and you’re not alone there, but I think that’s interesting that you did the whole thing at once in one go.

James:
Yeah. It required a full restart, but we had a good business that needed a full restart. But the thing about real estate is we are subject… You can build out the best business in the world, but you are subject to market conditions. That business may work really, really well for two to three years, but once that market changes, you have to pivot and you have to rebuild it. How I run my brokers today is completely different than it ran three years ago, six years ago, and nine years ago. We have to make those changes.
In this last, when rates got increased at the highest we’ve ever seen or at that pace that caused market conditions to change, we have rebuilt every one of these businesses to work inside of our new market conditions, not how we were doing it last year. That’s really important in the operator side is you have to forecast this, look at it, and then if you wait too long to make that change, that whole thing can sink you. You have to go, what is the business today? It’s the same name, it’s the same service, but how you do the business might be completely different.

Mindy:
I think what so many employers overlook or maybe just completely don’t even think about is that your employees are assets. When they’re no longer assets, when they’re not generating income for you, when they are not pulling their weight anymore, then they become a liability. But until that point, they are assets. James, you just said, pay them well, because they’re the ones that are generating the income for you. Yeah, absolutely. You have to take care of your employees because this market right now, I don’t care what the Fed says, everybody I know that has recently left a job, has left it because of pay or because of work conditions, and they’ve gone to another job that pays them significantly more. They’re not leaving for a thousand dollars raise. They’re leaving for a $20,000 raise, a $50,000 raise or a $50,000 raise plus a signing bonus. They’re leaving for substantial money. How long does it take you to train a new employee, James? Five minutes? No, it takes a long time. What does that cost you in lost revenue versus what you could have given the existing employee to stay?

Scott:
Along this line, one thing that I’m starting to learn, I have much less experience than James as a CEO here, but is when there’s an issue, it’s usually you can almost always be boiled into one of three things. It’s a strategy issue, it’s an operational issue, or it’s an individual issue with that. Parsing that out can be really difficult to figure out actually in each case, what is the issue? Is it with me? Is it with the process? Is it with the person? And those things? How would you advise? That’s daunting I think for a lot of people.
That’s why a lot of people don’t go into business is because how do you know what good looks like from a strategy? How do you know what good looks like from an operational process? How do you know what good looks like for an employee on something that’s brand new? There is no other business like yours in your region. You had to invent all of it piece by piece and parse that out. What is the advice you’d give to somebody trying to go through that and build up the courage to become an entrepreneur and handle these types of issues that involve not just assets of your business but people with lives?

James:
Yeah, and that it is very daunting, especially, it’s like one thing if you have the same business that operates, there’s always going to be a little bit of economy fluctuate. If you’re running a restaurant, you know if you do a certain amount of market or marketing, you run in a good service, you have a good product, people will come and if it’s in the right location and that sales will go up and down, but you just have to constantly improve the service. With investing or anytime you’re running a business, I always look at what are we doing first? What’s the strategy? Because if I know I have a good team and a capable team and it’s not working well, that means the strategy’s off and that’s coming for me as a leader. A good example of that, we have a prime one is our sales dropped dramatically from June to August.
The reason being is my salespeople were only chasing a couple types of product because it’s what everybody wanted. They wanted a cash flow rental property or a fix and flip opportunity. That was what everyone wanted. That was when the market was really good. Everybody wants high yield investments when the market’s doing well. But when the market stops doing well, high yield becomes very risky and the appetite drops dramatically. Then what was happening is our transactions fell by probably 70% during that time, and the reason being is there was no demand, but my sales team was on this clock of just like, we need to find this kind of product. I had to slow everyone down and say, you’re not allowed to sell anything for a couple weeks. Then we spent two weeks training on where the biggest opportunities in the market are.
As an operator, I had to direct them, and that’s why it’s really important for me to be hands on because investment appetites change, the type of investments available change, and so we had to do a lot of training on what the actual opportunity is because we need to provide value to our clients, which is good investments. Fix and flip right now, there’s only so much of it that’s a safer investment right now. The margins are a little off. It’s the cost of debts up. The market’s still shaky, so there’s not a lot of demand, not a lot of inventory, that’s going to mean low transactions. Either we wait for the market or we change our plan and buy differently. What we started targeting was other investments that actually worked really well, like land and development because the market cool down had dropped 50% of value.
That’s an opportunity there. We put together packages for our clients now where they could buy, rent and build a DADU in the backyard and do very, very well for returns, better returns than they were able to get for the last two years. But I had to bring the team in and train them on that. From there, now that I’ve done the training and the right message, if the salespeople that worked really well for the last two, three years don’t keep performing, that means I have a personnel problem. Because we know our investors want to buy this kind of product, we’ve taught them now, we’ve shifted their mindset. If they can’t pivot, that’s typically when we do have to kind of we know it’s a person problem. It’s really important for us, for all of our salespeople, all of our employees, that they can pivot the processes.
Even our construction, how my construction team runs is completely different than it did 12 months ago. Way more detailed, we’re doing a lot more labor stuff, it’s a lot more pressure, a lot more ordering of inventory. If they can’t pivot with me in the business, that’s where I know I have a person problem. You really have to look at what your business is doing, is it offering the right product to what is in current demand? If it’s not, as a business owner, I have to fix that and then train your employees thoroughly on that. If they can’t adapt at that point, then it’s a personnel problem.

Scott:
Awesome. I love it. I think that’s a really eloquent explanation of a really hard skill to master. It takes a humility and something to figure out, do I have the wrong strategy, right? Because I’ve been wrong. I thought, oh, this isn’t working because we’re not doing a good job over here. But it’s really with me and the strategy there. I’ve other times probably been a little too slow to deal with a performance issue in the past, and this is hard and it’s difficult and it involves really good interpersonal skills, building a high degree of trust and being convicted in your market and your strategy. But James, I want to ask about a few things here related to themes that I think I’ve picked up from this journey so far. First, I want to point out the frugality, we didn’t really dive too much into that, but we talked about it for a minute.
You were super thrifty to get started on this and that’s how you accumulated your capital, hard work and dedication to your current job, employee of the year nationwide at Red Robin, while also spending as much free time as possible learning something that could serve you and build your asset column long term. Maybe you wouldn’t have articulated it that way, but that was the theme at the time. That was the theme that seemed really to pop out to me. Then a very hands-on approach to building every aspect of your business. I imagine with some degree of perfectionism as you went through this over many years and building up these businesses and obsessing about the customer and the strategy and building up teams and developing these skills over a number of years. What else would you say are some themes that we should pick up? Do you agree with those?

James:
Yeah, no, I completely agree. Make sure you’re really good at what you do and then you’re passionate about it and then it will go from there. The frugalness save your money. We didn’t just do that when we started, when 2008, that was a restart for us too. I got annihilated. I had lost all my cash really quickly. We didn’t start making money until ’14, ’15 because… Or seeing that we were making money, but we weren’t seeing it. We were reinvesting all. Every flip we do, that would go into a rental or another flip. It was just, if you don’t put your hands on it, you can reinvest it. You will grow exponentially, which will help your business too. Be frugal. Just because short-term pain equals long-term gain. Take a portion out, reinvest it, reinvest or reinvest it. That’s also how we really exponentially the growth. I mean, if you have liquidity, you can grow faster. The more you save and the more you invest, it grows faster. That’s more liquidity. That I’m a huge believer on don’t overextend, don’t take out too much debt and save your money.

Mindy:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Everything you say is right, James.

James:
Not always. Definitely not always.

Scott:
James, I’d like to wrap up with one final point. You were telling me over dinner a few months back, might have been almost a year ago now, about how your door knocking past has served you well in, let’s call it part of your luxury living down in Newport Beach, California. Would you mind sharing that story and giving folks an idea of what all this builds up to from a lifestyle perspective?

James:
Door knocking can stay with you for life, and don’t get me wrong, I still door knock to this day. I’ll go knock a door if I’m at a house. I like doing it. I enjoy it. I like talking to people, even if they’re not happy to talk to me, I just like diffusing them. But yes, I’m not afraid to door knock. I was telling Scott I had bought a boat and we were shipping it out to Newport Beach, and in Newport Beach…

Scott:
Boat.

James:
Which boats, I already know what people are thinking, terrible investment. It’s because it’s not an investment. It is an investment in my happiness. It’s like the one place that I calm down is on the water. If I’m in the woods skiing now, that’s my new hobby I picked up again, and then on the water.

Scott:
It’s more than a boat, but yeah.

James:
It’s an office for me too. If you check out On The Market podcast, sometimes I’m filming in there, but what I had to do is supply and demand, and Newport Beach, there’s only so many boat slips, and so I had this boat on the way out and I’m like, oh, I can’t find a slip. This is ridiculous. I could not find any. I literally for I had to door knock every waterfront home in Newport Beach, leaving them flyers and asking if I could rent their dock, which it actually worked out well. The slip I actually end up getting by doorknocking, I was paying 70% lower than market. Putting in that extra effort, knocking on a door can save you money and make money. Yes, right, it was 65% less than market rate. Knock that door, you never know what’s going to happen. You always ask the question, no is okay, but ask the question.

Scott:
Does that count as off market real estate if it’s on the water?

James:
It is crazy, but renting boat slips, it is serious cash flow in Newport if you can get the right deal.

Mindy:
Okay, I see a new job for you, doorknock, get more slips and rent them out at 65% off and then rent them to other people at full price.

Scott:
James, before we go, how long you been in business?

James:
We’ve been in business since 2005. I’ve been in real estate.

Scott:
All right, so 16 years of grinding, hustling, hard work, sweat and tears, and you can have problems like James…

James:
Save your money.

Scott:
… in finding a place to dock your boat. James, phenomenal story. We really appreciate you coming on here. You’re obviously a master at what you do. You’ve served a lot of investors, built an incredible business, and I really admire and like your approach. I love that. I love the fact that you’re hands-on entrepreneurial and you’re going to be the quarterback and you’re not shy about it. Your business is not passive and you seem to love it and build it, and it’s an incredible success. Congratulations and thank you so much for sharing your journey with us today.

James:
I appreciate it. I will come back anytime to hang out with you two. This is the highlight of my week.

Mindy:
Awesome. Okay, thank you, James. This was fabulous. I love talking to you. Yes, I will have you back. Maybe someday we’ll kick Scott off and you can come join me. Okay, James, thank you again, and we’ll talk to you soon.

James:
Thanks guys.

Mindy:
All right, Scott, that was James Dainard. He was fantastic. Did you hear him near the end where he said, I build my business for what works for me, not what others are doing. That right there is like the solid gold quote. It doesn’t matter what anybody else is doing. It matters what you want to do, what you can comfortably do, what you can handle. Don’t try to be the biggest and the best. Do what you can do easily, what you can do comfortably. I love James.

Scott:
Yeah, I think this is an example of a 15, 16 year snowball of hard work, thrift, frugality, really relentless drive to understand and broaden his expertise and perfect systems in one specific area. I think that’s a blueprint for success for a lot of folks. There’s nothing sexy about it. It was just one hard, probably week at a time. One frugal decision, one extra effort at Red Robin, one extra effort knocking on the door, that extra door getting yelled at or whatever, building up a cumulatively 1% a week to this empire that he’s built today. The incredible, I’ll call them first world problems of need a reasonable place to park your yacht. This is the story. Is it going to be overnight? No, but is it something that is achievable for more folks if they’re going to adopt that mentality? Absolutely. You can succeed in this. This is not a business that required a college degree in the first place. He could have done this right out of high school, potentially, and built something similar. I just think it’s really impressive and it’s a really good American success story.

Mindy:
Yeah, if you want to be successful in real estate, you absolutely can. You don’t need to have any special skills. You need to have, I guess, perseverance. Would you call that a skill, Scott?

Scott:
Yeah, it’s a habit, a mentality. Yeah, it’s perseverance and short. You need to have the confidence to feel like you can generally be competent at every aspect of your business, which is what I am sure James is.

Mindy:
Yes, I’m sure he is. But you don’t need to have a college degree. You just need to be knowledgeable, be educated, be persistent, and be good. Be a good salesman or saleswoman, sorry to be so sexist. I always get in trouble with that. Okay, Scott, should we get out of here?

Scott:
Let’s do it.

Mindy:
That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. He is Scott Trench and I am Mindy Jensen saying, keep on poppin Red Robin.

Scott:
If you enjoyed today’s episode, please give us a five star review on Spotify or Apple. If you’re looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at youtube.com/biggerpocketsmoney.

Mindy:
BiggerPockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaitlin Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the BiggerPockets team for making this show possible.